Do No Evil – As Tibetan protesters take to the streets in the biggest and most bloody challenge to Chinese rule in nearly 20 years, Dispatches reports on the hidden reality of life under Chinese occupation after spending three months undercover, deep inside the region.
How dam* sad that countries are still operating under the system of torture and repression. They will all pay one day.
Good post Senor Coconut
" They will all pay one day. "
I suppose it's true, but the reality is that it has always been the Tibetans and other oppressed people that "pay" in terms of their lives, freedoms and everyday life. The Tibetans don't want the Chinese to "pay" (or at least the majority) for their horrible genocide. They simply want autonomy over their own people, their country, they want freedom of their religion, freedom from the Chinese planting monks in the monasteries, freedom from the Chinese kidnapping their Lamas and replacing them with plants, freedom from Chinese oppression and continued genocide.
Do you think that's going to happen with China being the US's most favored nation trading partner? Or with people supporting the Olympics despite the horrors occurring right now?
Again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story, especially one which provides political leverage by the West in its efforts to demonise and destabalise China, but I should point out to you that Tibetans ARE Chinese, no more or less, than any other tribal group of Chinese. They have been Chinese for more than 800 years.
To call this genocide is ludicrous. This video shows nothing other than Tibetans rioting in the streets, including monks, burning shops and cars, intercut and juxtaposed with the movements of the military and security. The interpretations are your own and ones you are told to believe according to the videos makers. It is a semiotic reading to which you bring your already cast, narrow-minded views and prejudices shaped by your government and your media.
Your country, your empire, and the other European Empires before it, have a vested interest in destablising China. They have been hard at work on this goal for the past few hundred years.
"...a question like, "When did the Chinese first invade Tibet?" is an oxymoron. The fallacy is comparable to a hypothetical question: "When did Native Americans invade Navajo or Apache tribal lands? " In America, you have Navajo, Cherokee, Choctaw, Sioux, Chippewa, Apache, etc. In Zhong Guo, they have Han, Hui, Mian, Zang, Zhuangâ; about 50 plus ethnicities living on the land called the Middle Kingdom."
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200...
It is funny, Skeek, but what makes you think we US citizens have a vested interest in destabilizing China? We have been enemies in times past, but should we have been? Is China culpable of any wrongdoing ever?
Frankly, the average citizen in the US just wants to live in peace with the rest of the world, and at least 70% of us currently are very tired and disillusioned with our empire building. We have a lot of hard core capitalist radicals in our country, but they are the exception rather than the rule Most of us are just hard working individuals who try to make ends meet, a lot like we perceive the average Chinese to be. Most of the common people in the world including Tibetans just want the same thing, family, the right to freely live, the right to share and trade with your neighbors, and the right to religious freedom. Isn't it the governments who try the most to control the masses? And isn't nationalism a real bitch? Whose pride is it anyway?
From what I read here I'm not so sure the average US citizen just wants to live in peace. Your country has a voracious appetite for war and it takes very little to easily convince the general populace of its necessity, even if all it takes are phenomenally, illogical over-simplifications, such as "they hate us for our freedoms," and blatant, outright lies. In addition, the glorification of war and those that are fed into the war machine as cannon fodder reaches fanatical proportions. This is necessary simply to feed that machine so that the empire can continue to expand and expand through conquest and domination.
At the end of the day, however, it simply boils down to nothing more than individual ego inflated vicariously through obsessive nationalism. What many of you call Manifest Destiny. You are a nation indoctrinated with delusions of your own self-importance and the belief in your own superiority to all other life forms on this planet.
You are so off, skeek, it's breathtaking. The vast majority of U.S. citizens would like nothing better than for the whole world to take a chill pill and emancipate everyone everywhere and live peacefully. The sociopaths and lunatics in the world make that impossible, and adults already indoctrinated to hate and destroy in all cultures are past the age where they are easily reshaped.
There is a history that has created current circumstances, so it's not as simple as saying all the Chinese or all the Americans are bad or worse than others. I would certainly argue that most people would rather live in the United States than China, simply because of the freedoms guaranteed by our constitution. We aren't perfect at following it, but at least we have it, and we do have a representative government that sometimes does exert the will of the people over that of the central power elites.
And, we get to toss the elites out every 8 years, no matter what.
What's breathtaking is the belief you have in your own mythology. America is, not as you would have me believe, saving the world. It is insidious in its activities of expansion, and hypocritical in both its justifications of its own actions and its condemnation of the actions of other nations. America is not the champion of the world that as a nation you have convinced yourselves that it is. Only Americans truly believe that; most of this world does not. Rather, America is trying to dominate the world and recreate it in its own image. Its efforts to subjugate China are just one example of this, but these efforts happen with such frequency, on a near daily basis as to simply be accepted as normal, at least by Americans, and involve almost every place on earth that does not kowtow to it. America is an empire. This is what empires do; yours is no different from any other that has gone before it in history. The only difference is in the window dressing.
Americans came from everywhere, so you can't talk about us without also talking about people of every other country--including yours--in the same breath.
We have no interest in subjugating China. We want the Chinese people to have the freedoms we enjoy. We want them to be free to travel freely, to speak their minds, and to not fear for their lives and liberty for doing it.
You speak of my "belief," and yet are so guided by anti-U.S. rhetoric that you have developed a very jaded opinion of Americans.
America is not an empire. America is just an entity that finds itself in a state in time. George Bush's clever handlers may have figured out how to manipulate the ignorant and religiously indoctrinated into voting for him, and he may act like an emperor, but he'll be retired soon.
"We want the Chinese people to have the freedoms we enjoy..."
I appreciate your goodwill for Chinese people. I believe many ordinary citizens in the west mean no harm, some even have goodwill. But, what your country as a whole does to China and Chinese people shows malice meant to harm and there are things that can be very harmful if not guarded against. There are also ordinary citizens who harbor evil wills for their own benefit, out of ignorance or bad human nature and to a large extent under influence by others, and in particular the press.
Lark, I agree the press poisons people's minds, and is controlled by powerful people, especially in the U.S., where laws were recently relaxed so a few own all.
Power elites of all countries do things that put themselves above the law and they seek their own agendas.
Since 9/11 the United States has been very polarized with fascist and socialist extremists.
I actually think the Chinese are brave and courageous to realize over-population is a key to everything from pollution to famine, and taking action, even if some find it misguided. And they now have a common language--we don't even have that in the U.S. because of political correctness.
My beloved cat died from the Chinese pet food additive last year, and I was very sad and angry at China, and yet I was horrified they executed the man in charge of such things. It's difficult to understand different cultural values.
I think national leaders mostly consider themselves chess players and people are pawns.
Americans are currently fighting to retain the one thing that limits our government's power--our own right to keep and bear arms. We have wealthy bullies like Michael Bloomberg and George Soros attempting to disarm us and turn the U.S. into a dictatorship and police state.
And the United Nations has been attacking us for a long time in an attempt to undermine our constitution. Talk about a bunch of thugs who don't acknowledge basic human rights while claiming to take the high road! They should be spreading the freedom and liberty it affirms.
Our constitution is the thin thread between we the people and totalitarianism (right or left), and we fiercely defend it not as nationalists, but out of a recognition that this is the only cushion we have. And we'd like everyone to have freedom of speech, to assemble, and to bear arms for self-defense against tyrants and enemies foreign and domestic.
Why should China single out people in Tibet and put them below other people in the country? This is not to China's advantage and such accusation is ridiculous. Ethnic minority actually have advantage or privilege over the rest.
"Why should China single out people in Tibet and put them below other people in the country? This is not to China's advantage and such accusation is ridiculous. Ethnic minority actually have advantage or privilege over the rest. "
You must be a Chinese plant. For those of us that have been to Tibet, indeed for anyone that's seen Tibet change over the past 20 years (which is all I can claim -- although there are plenty of examples of people who can describe the change since the 50's as well) it is apparent that the Tibetan people have no advantages over the Han Chinese. They are relegated to slums, forced out by the encouraged mass-transplant of Han Chinese into Tibet. They are oppressed in what they can say, who they can look to for guidance, who they can talk about, what pictures they can own, who they can talk to.
Their freely chosen Panchen Lama was kidnapped by the Chinese government, never to be seen again and replaced with a Panchen Lama chosen by the Han Chinese (who are by governmental definition non-religious). Their monasteries are infiltrated and run by non-religious Chinese Communist Party members who aren't even Buddhist. They aren't free to worship as they please, they aren't free to speak the reality of their situation, they are constantly monitored by Chinese secret police (as are any media who go to talk to Tibetans) and live in fear of being singled out for death-sentences simply for owning a picture of the Dalai Lama.
Their spiritual and temporal leader is banned from the country and attacked constantly with words. It is, in fact, a miracle he has not been assassinated, though I suspect if the Chinese did that the world might actually get off their asses and do something.
If you want a starkly realistic look at Tibet and the effects China has had on its people (and a starkly realistic, some say overly-critical, portrayal of the Dalai Lama and American Lamaists) you should read:
Tibet, Tibet by Patrick French.
Be warned that this is an honest assessment of the horrors that occurred in the 50s onward and doesn't even touch upon the recent history.
You may also look to the films Kundun, Tibet:Cry of the Snow Lion, or Vajra Sky Over Tibet for accurate portrayals of both Tibetan Buddhism and Chinese oppression.
You may also consider reading *any* tour book not written by the Chinese covering Tibet. Every single one warns you about the subjects you should not discuss with Tibetans so as not to put them in danger of being arrested or 'disappeared.'
"Their freely chosen Panchen Lama ..."
Who are you talking about? The 2-year old that they freely chose? Why was he chosen? Because he came from an influential family! Is this what you call democracy?
"... simply for owning a picture of the Dalai Lama"
Are you sure there's no consequence for owning a picture of Bin Laden in the U.S.? Do you want to try?
What about advocating communism in the U.S.? No consequence?
Tension in Tibet occurred due to the activities of Dalai Lama's government in exile. What government on earth would tolerate another organization that claims to be the government of part of their country? The situation is analogous to somebody having a dispute with the U.S. government over a historic building or piece of land in New York, then claims independence and flees the country and becomes the government in exile of that part of New York. Will the U.S. government welcome people having connection with the head of this government in exile?
They sell pictures of Bin Laden in many places in the U.S., so owning one is not a problem. I've bought several myself and used them for cathartic target practice. And we alternate between moving closer to socialism (democrats) and closer to fascism (republicans), just like many countries do--or at least those who actually get a choice.
I would even argue that, while the Chinese consider themselves communists, we've never actually seen a truly communist country (not that it would be good thing, since studies show people generally can be more punitive than a dictator)--but that's a discussion for another time. The U.S. is a hybrid--primarily a democratic republic, so we haven't practiced "democracy" here, either. People elect what they're used to or those who are able to use rhetoric effectively--whackjobs in many cases. Even in the U.S.
Actually, the U.S. has given historic sites back to indigenous people in some cases, and they don't shoot people who emigrate.
Freely chose? This is complete nonsense. The Tibetans under the Dalai Lamas were slaves. Slaves have no freedoms. Google it.
The Dalai Lama is not banned. He is in self-imposed exile. China will simply not allow him to be king as he and those before him believed they were entitled to. An entitlement that was first granted to them by Genghis Khan more than 800 years ago when Tibet, a stateless land, first became Chinese territory. Google it.
As I've said, you never seem to let the facts get in the way of a good story.
"Slavery existed in Tibet into the 1950s. Five percent of the population constituted the ruling class, among others the secular and spiritual nobility in the monasteries. Ninety percent of the population were serfs and five percent were slaves. The feudal rulers opposed reforms and with the support of the CIA, promoted separatism."
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve06/1288tibet.html
To accuse LARK of being a Chinese plant is as absurd as accusing you of being a CIA plant. I don't doubt LARK is Chinese, but what of it? Something your media has probably not shown is how the disruption of the Olympic Torch Relay by a small number of US sponsored supporters jetted from one international location of the relay to the other to disrupt and discredit China, including the assault on a wheelchair bound torchbearer, is how this has caused such outrage in the global Chinese communities as to cause them to unify and stand up for China. Has the enormous pro-Chinese turnout received anywhere near the same kind of coverage as the minority of government plant protesters? Obviously not. To you they're all "Chinese plants," such is your blind hatred toward a country and its people.
As big as you talk, I also seriously doubt whether you've been to either Tibet or China. You only say this to give the appearance of knowing what you are talking about, but you obviously don't. You talk about the changes in Tibet since the 1950's. What is your source for this history? Even the most rudimentary and elementary of encyclopedias will tell you the complete opposite.
Here's a very brief summary. China broke the Dalai Lama imposed slavery, gave the Tibetan people land for farming, under the Dalai Lama's land ownership was forbidden and was only granted to the ruling elite, and developed social and economic infrastructures that were previously non-existent -- health care and hospitals, education, electricity and public transport to name only a few. I repeat, none of these things were there under the Dalai Lamas. This is the "inhumanity" you sprout on about China having brought to Tibet. Google it.
Don't forget to give Europe it's due.
Most times Europe marches to the beat of America's drum if it suits its interests. China had struggled, was demoralised by, and eventually imploded under the hostilities of Europe's empires less than a century ago, followed by Japan's opportunism in that moment of weakness. Even now, Europe's banks return and reopen at the exact same addresses they had in China at that time. Europe's nations still have interests in reviving their colonial pasts and their imperial rule that was wrenched from each of them -- Britain and France primarily -- less than a lifetime ago. The same two countries where we saw the greatest, most violent and most importantly, the most media-spectacled disruptions to the Olympic Torch Relay.
"Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa."
"By 1961, Chinese occupation authorities expropriated the landed estates owned by lords and lamas. They distributed many thousands of acres to tenant farmers and landless peasants, reorganizing them into hundreds of communes.. Herds once owned by nobility were turned over to collectives of poor shepherds. Improvements were made in the breeding of livestock, and new varieties of vegetables and new strains of wheat and barley were introduced, along with irrigation improvements, all of which reportedly led to an increase in agrarian production."
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
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Good info. You get so littlwe coming out of Tibet.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, but in case you are in interested in the facts, I'll repeat what I've said on this subject many times before; facts that are easily found with just a few minutes invested on your search engine.
1. Tibet has been part of China for more than 800 years. China has never relinquished sovereignty of it. I understand there are movements in both Hawaii and Guam demanding independence from the USA. Google it.
Do you have any interest in paying attention to these demands much less granting them? Obviously not. Your rhetoric is empty, insincere and hypocritical.
2. The Dalai Lama has been on the CIA payroll since his self-imposed, I repeat self-imposed, exile. China has always been open to talks with the Dalai Lama and has said he is welcome to return as a Buddhist leader, just not as ruling monarch, as is his wish. Google it.
3. Tibetans lived in slavery under the Dalai Lamas. Google it.
Is this what you wish to have returned to Tibet?
4. Reporters Without Borders, the primary protest group at the Olympic Torch Relay that was interrupted in those countries with the greatest vested interest in destabalising China -- Britain, France, Japan, and the USA -- is CIA and US government funded. Google it.
These countries demonise China because they have always wanted a piece of it and are threatened by its emerging power on the world stage. Much has been said by the West and its media about China and much of it has been wrong -- nothing more than fabricated propaganda.
You have been played for fools by your own government which has taught you since birth to hate China. Your own government also plays on your so-called 'liberal' and 'progressive' beliefs.
If the CIA can infiltrate the toughest, most battle hardened militia in the world, America's own myopic, gullible and naive supposed dissenters should be a piece of cake.
If the CIA throws its weight and money behind the Dalai Lama and his protest groups after having deposed democratically elected governments around the world while having installed some of its most brutal tyrants, why should the rule of the Dalai Lama be any different?
The rule of the Dalai Lamas, throughout the centuries, have proven themselves to be such tyrants and anything but 'living Buddhas.' If you know anything about history you will also know the Dalai Lamas were first installed by the brutal Mongul Emperor, Genghis Khan himself, as puppet rulers designated to control an outer territory that, at that time, was not a country. It was stateless occupied only by nomadic tribes. History, however, has proven irrelevant on the matter of Tibet and has been mostly dismissed with yawning disinterest in preference to the West's deification of a sly, albeit amiable and chuckling political opportunist -- the Dalai Lama.
The CIA supports the Dalai Lamas? Why?
Dotted around the perimeter of China's borders are American military bases; this is what your government calls containment. Tibet is another opportunity to do the same. It is also an opportunity to attempt to destabalise China. Such efforts have resulted in many mishaps, misinformation and two disastrous wars. The destabalisation of China is a US goal because China, as an emerging world power, represents a threat to the current although diminishing US supremacy.
Furthermore, Tibet has other strategic value, as it is positioned between China and India. Both are emerging powers and any unification between two such powers is not in America's interests of domination.
Finally, once the present oil wars begin to wane due to oil's depletion the next resource to be contested is water. The Himalayas, in which Tibet is geographically located is the source of Asia's two great rivers - The Yangtze and the Ganges. Both are the primary source of water for both China and India respectively.
I should add that just as the US has an interest in securing a foothold in the Himalayas by means of Tibet in order to divide and conquer the emerging powers of China and India it is also currently courting Mongolia in order to achieve the same ends in preventing strengthened ties between Russia and China. This is in addition to having already secured much of China's all important eastern seaboard by means of military installations in such locations as Japan, South Korea, Guam, the Philippines and Taiwan and is now making advances on China's western flank into Central Asia via Afghanistan. If China were to similarly surround America with military bases on all points of the compass, to say you would be concerned, would be an understatement. You would also have some glimpse of an understanding of what it means to be Chinese.
World News Briefs; Dalai Lama Group Says It Got Money From C.I.A.
Published: October 2, 1998
The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency, but denied reports that the Tibetan leader benefited personally from an annual subsidy of $180,000.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=...
Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak
Michael Backman
May 23, 2007
The government set up in exile in India and, at least until the 1970s, received $US1.7 million a year from the CIA.
The money was to pay for guerilla operations against the Chinese, notwithstanding the Dalai Lama's public stance in support of non-violence, for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.
The Dalai Lama himself was on the CIA's payroll from the late 1950s until 1974, reportedly receiving $US15,000 a month ($US180,000 a year).
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/behind-d...
Skeek, an excellent treatise. I knew much of the history you have wrote about, and you are right on target. I approached it from the Empire building motives of the US in my objections to helping the Tibetans with their independence. As moving as the story in the video is, and as oppressive as the Chinese are, it is none of our business. We are not the police or savior of the world. We are not even doing a very good job right now of saving our own asses from tyranny and terror. We are almost bankrupt, and it is impossible to continue in the direction we are currently going without a complete collapse of our system.
When this is the general mindset or the consciousness of a nation, accompanied with all the trimmings and reinforcements of jingoism and the demonisation of some supposed "evil" -- usually another nation, race or religion -- in order to justify its own military and economic expansion, I have to ask how peaceful exactly is this?
I can, however, understand that it can often seem all too overwhelming and it would be easier to pretend that all of it either isn't happening or refuse to know anything more about it, other than what supports the immediate reality of all these things, for fear that to know more of the truth engenders personal dissatisfaction and puts you at odds with your immediate environment.
It is no surprise then that the pro-Tibetan cause has become a form of fashion for many dissatisfied Americans. It's much easier to redivert dissatisfaction to some far away place and a faceless people to be blamed, than to address the root cause beneath your own doorstep.
The irony is that this feeds in perfectly with the plans of empire and the very dissatisfaction it causes amongst its own citizenry. Citizens who become unwitting accomplices to the acts of empire, and all the empire need do is say, "Look! The people, in their malleable ignorance, are protesting! It must be democracy!!" Like sheep bleating.
Incidentally, I've had to repost these two comments as they appeared at the end of the thread. There was a third comment which was the first in this series, but it has disappeared altogether. This probably appears disjointed because of that and I'm sorry for that. I'll blame it on the gremlins.
Now I see what's happened. The first is beneath your comment below. Thank you for your patience and perseverance if you've gone to the trouble of trying to piece it all together.
Yes, we are like sheep sometimes but we do have a way of protesting that makes a difference in this country. We can openly march, protest, or vote our convictions. We can change government any time We The People decide to. I really think you are about to see that in this upcoming election. Can China do that?
Propeller duplicity
Well, I have no problem at this point in what you are saying. Many Americans are looking for blame for some of there woes, but I have to disagree that it is the majority of the Americans. 70% of Americans are against the war in Iraq, yet, we continue on. Almost half the Americans want to impeach Cheney and Bush, yet, they continue on. The Tibetan issue is really a non issue with me other than the fact all governments oppress their own people from time to time, and to say it is always for the best may be a little naive. Maybe some of the Tibetans have a real complaint. Regardless, from my point of view, it is not our responsibility, it is the Chinese responsibility to uphold human rights if they are the kind of people you claim. We can agree on human rights can't we?
You might be right about the involvement of US as history shows us lots of examples of US meddling in other countries for its own benefits.
You might also be correct to say that Tibet under the ruling of Dalai might not be ideal and comfortable.
However, we should not lost focus on the fact that the Chinese government is committing crimes against the people, Maybe just like the US does. To say the acquisations against the Chinese government are incorrect because meddling by US government agencies and Dalai is simply illogical.
I agree that it is incorrect to hate China. But it is not wrong to act against the Chinese government (or any government) who trashes human rights and torture the people.
The only problem with that thinking is that somebody or country has to be Supreme Beings in order to make the rest of the world behave. Who will that somebody be?
I think the ones whose rights are being trashed and whose people are being tortured ought to stand up and fight for those rights and the freedom from torture. They should do so until death if they feel that strongly about it.
Thank you for send invited massages to me for read this post.