Do No Evil – Being openly gay is not an option in the new Iraq, where the rise of religious extremism has left Mohammed and his gay friends feeling especially vilified.
One interesting point the story makes is that, before US arrival in Iraq, gay life could be conducted, albeit clandestinely.
The rise of religious extremism, which has resulted, among other things, in neighborhood raids by Shiite and Sunni death squads, has made gay life in Iraq virtually impossible.
The dark ages of sexism and homophobia persists in Iraq and most of the other middle eastern countries. Shameful and cruel!
"The dark ages of sexism and homophobia persists in Iraq and most of the other middle eastern countries. Shameful and cruel!'
Shameful and cruel indeed.
Glad we Americans have freed ourselves from the shackles of sexism and homophobia.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
OK, seriously, we don't sentence women to flogging for being raped, we just acquit the rapist after humiliating the woman on the stand by seeking to prove she "wanted it" or "was asking for it." And we don't kill people for being gay, or do we? Of the thousands of John Does dead in the morgues of any major US city, how many were gay and were killed out of hate? Any idea?
I have a gay friend, who was found out by his parents in Texas in the 1950s. He was confined to a mental hospital against his will and subjected to an extended course of electroshock treatments.
Let us not pretend that the struggle against sexism and homophobia is a problem of other countries. We have ills enough at home to fight.
And lets pose some additional questions about the enlightened USA -
1). Your employer finds out you are gay. He hates gays, and so he fires you. Do you have legal recourse?
Not likely. Although your employer would be in the deep doodoo if he fired you because of age, sex, ethnicity, race, handicap or religion, sexual orientation does not enjoy legal protection, and you would be out of luck.
2). The police spy on you, and find out you make love to your same sex partner, whom you have been with in a loving and monogamous relationship for many years. Are you in trouble?
In many states, you have committed a serious crime and you may end up doing prison time.
I was curious as to what the Qu'ran had to say about homosexuality, so read some on the subject.
Not surprisingly, the Qu'ran actually has very little to say about it at all, and NO direct condemnation of homosexuality.
There is a passage concerning adultery when it is commited between two men or two women, and punishment['hurt them both'[floggng?] and house arrest is suggested, but is it for the adultery or the choice of partner?
then there are a few passages about the biblical account of Sodom and Gommorah, but these are likewise very vague. Is the coming wrath for homosexuality, 'excess' or inhospitable behavior? [Hospitality to guests is big deal in Arab culture]
The fact is that for such a huge book, the Qu'ran has almost nothing to say about homosexuality, which to me suggests that the writer thought it wasn't that big an issue.
Most of the textual religious fodder against homosexuality in Islam comes from the Hadith, a collection of sayings attributed to Mohammed.
Hearsay
So we have Jesus and Mohammed, two great religious leaders who seemed unconcerned about homosexuality, and we have the incongruity of their followers who seem VERY preoccupied and concerned with it.
Strange
If one puts their own personal feelings and tastes aside, one can only conclude that if what the founders of a religion say [or do not say] takes precedence over all others in a religion, there is no basis for mistreatment of homosexuals-except of course, people's own personal feelings and tastes.
Religious-based persecution of homosexuals appears to be a case of followers following other followers, and is another example of people using religion as an excuse to do evil
It always puzzled me that so many Christians are stridently hateful against gays. Have they ever had a hard look at their savior? long hair, pretty eyes, never married, carried on about "brotherly love," spent most of his time with a bunch of other guys who acted the same. Hm.
If Jesus came again, hardcore Christians would label him a "faggot" and give him the Matthew Shepard treatment.
Regarding your comments about the Qur'an - that is why moderates accept homosexuality. The extremists don't.
Speaking as a Muslim, I respect people who respect me in return. Where I currently work there are alot of gays working there. Some of them are really smart, some of them are funny as hell and there are a small few that are a$$holes. What I'm trying to say is they're people like us and we shouldn't be f'n with them. What is it with America. Always have to hate someone. Indians, Blacks, Communist, Blacks again, Muslims and now Gays. When will it all end?
Agreed, Dead. Strictures are imposed by priests and other religious leaders (and their followers), largely, to help perpetuate the faith.
Thus the need for the heavy-duty management of sexual expression, with its emphasis on reproduction by a "coreligionist" husband and wife only.
The less "recreational," nonproductive sex--which, among other things, might distract the faithful from their faith--the better.
In Freudian terms, you want to channel all that libido into "safe" expression, e. g., work and devotion.
well that's an interesting idea, and it is true that religion is partly about people telling other people what to do-as a spokesperson or proxy for 'God', of course.
But are you suggesting that this 'imposing of strictures' is a conscious and premeditated thing to keep people in a state of 'devotion'? Like a 'keeping them in the fold' gameplan? I mean I never really thought about it in those terms before, but that level of self-awareness seems unlikely among the priestly set.
Now the threatening with hellfire, that I could see. Threats are pretty hard to veil even to the one making them, and have one purpose, control. But sexuality...hmmm...well, I guess its still a threat-anything we condemn God condemns and hence you'll go to hell for it-but if what you're telling me is true, and it makes sense, I think maybe the 'keeping them in the fold thru channeling sexual energies into other available outlets'-and religion being one of those outlets, well, I just think that may be a 'happy' accident. An unintended tho welcomed consequence of a general desire to rule and control.
But I've never really thought about it before.
I have said much and there is much I could say relating to this, about authority and power and religion [things spring to mind, like 'God's' insistence to the Israelites when they asked for a ruler, for a king, that rulers cause strife, and other passages that indicate that we are to have God alone as our ruler that short circuit the idea of theocracy thru a priestly sect] but I am trying vainly not to be so verbose on here :-)
two ears one mouth, etc.
I'd contend that religion as an ideological doctrine is developed for basically the same reasons as other existing doctrines and that is to maximize control over an individual as well as the masses.
Historically, religious leaders assumed positions of authority not just on questions of morality and ethics, but knowledge and epistemology as well.
That is precisely the reason why fighting the concept of heliocentrism in particular and scientific method in general was so important to Catholic church despite that Jesus didn't spend that much time talking about whether Earth revolves around Sun or vice versa.
Science as a secular discipline was a direct challenge to religious authority. And as gatekeepers of literacy and knowledge religious institutions of the time attempted to preserve the control as long as they could.
As gatekeepers of morality priests and imams wield their authority essentially for the same purpose.
Well, Dead, I think such strictures are conveyed through dogma via basic text, e. g., the bible, through countless iterations of same--that is, preaching--and so on.
Where does all THAT come from? From human need, un-, sub-, semi-, and fully conscious divisions.
well thanks for giving me something to think about. For instance can it be both, an unconscious and conscious thing simultaneously? If it's conscious, what an evil thing to knowingly control people by diverting expression of one of the principle joys of existence into drab and mundane substitutes.
the psychology behind religion is very complex, and religion itself is a very intricate phenomenon, so I hate to see general statements made about it, like it's a box of crackerjack, like it can be easily understood and categorized
religion purports to be about freeing the soul, yet the word literally means 'to bind back'.
If one looks at the psychological mechanism behind Catholicism for instance, 'we define the rules[priestly authority], when you break the rules[sin] only we can take away your guilt[confession]', it creates a feedback loop that 'binds' one to the Church and keeps them coming 'back'
And they take it from womb to tomb, baptism to last rites.
But anyway, this is supposed to be about persecution of homosexuals in Iraq.
But I started out on topic about the Qu'ranic basis for it.
There is none.
That's enough words for one day. Thanks for the exchange and good luck with your thread :-)
Dead, we're in the realm of human psychology (if not also that of angels dancing on the head of a pin).
Think about how you make a decision--any decision--say, about which car to buy.
Partly, presumably, you do some homework. You "free-associate"--a part-conscious/part-not process concerning needs and practical matters. Then--ah!--there's the unconscious part--the "have-to-have" or "need-to-have" aspect. (And I'm only talking "car"--what about mate? Well, mate is mostly unconscious, no?)
So, to answer your question, most decisions/motivations are based on a multitude of conscious to un- factors.
well, that's the thing:
the decisions we make are based on unconscious and conscious factors, but the actual buying of that car is conscious
so not the decision to, but is the actual act of condemnation a conscious attempt to 'perpetuate the faith' ?
In other words do they say to themselves, 'if I do this then I will get that'?
It may seem a strange distinction, I know
Really got to bail. i'll check back sooner or later tho.
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"It is impossible to say how many gay men and women face persecution in Iraq. According to an Iraqi gay rights group, run by a former disc jockey in Baghdad named Ali Hili who now lives in London, 400 people have been killed in Iraq since 2003 for being gay."
Institutionalized hate in action.
right. agreed