Do No Evil – Lawyers within the clandestine branch of the Central Intelligence Agency gave written approval in advance to the destruction in 2005 of hundreds of hours of videotapes documenting interrogations of two lieutenants from Al Qaeda, according to a former senior intelligence official with direct knowledge of the episode.
BTW, all that screaming about Waterboarding? It works, and it only takes 35 seconds for the little animals to sing like canaries.
I don't care if it works or not. Torture is torture and there is no excuse for it.
As a country we have agreed in many treaties to not act in that manner and either we uphold our written promises or our word is worth nothing in the world or to our citizens.
If you like that kind of activity so much you should go live in China or North Korea or most middle east countries where that kind of activity is acceptable.
Those methods are not acceptable anywhere in the civilized western world except in the mind of the current administration who tramples civil liberties and constitutional rights with impudence.
Well Ani, the US Army disagrees with you - on the basis that waterboarding is torture AND that torture yields little information of value. In fact, the false information gained from torture was used by bushie as propaganda for Iraq AND turned out to be totally wrong.
In Arrogant Defense of Torture
The White House is already complaining about reports that House and Senate conferees have come to an agreement on an intelligence measure mandating that all agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency, comply with the Army Field Manual's outlawing of torture. The manual properly reflects American Law by Explicitly Proscribing The Gamut Of Torture Measures â;; Including Waterboarding â;; that have proved dear to the heart of administration zealots....
1. Torture = ineffective. An innocent person will lie to end the pain, and a fanatic will gladly die with a lie on his lips to serve his "cause" - and earn a place with 49 virgins, of course!
2. Torture = wrong. Evil is no answer to evil that any civilised person can contemplate. I will concede that sometimes the realities cast a harsher light on the situation "at the front lines", as it were. That, however, remains no excuse. If we are to fight for something, it must be the difference between us - we are good, they are not. By engaging in torture, WHATEVER the reason or justification, we forfeit that - and the "War on Terror" becomes just another war of aggression.
to your item 1. it's "may" not "will"
- e.g., KSM
- e.g., John McCain, et. al.
to your item 2.
- what the hell does this mean: "I will concede that sometimes the realities cast a harsher light on the situation 'at the front lines', as it were."
- "By engaging in torture, WHATEVER the reason or justification, we forfeit that..." why?
"BTW, all that screaming about Waterboarding? It works, and it only takes 35 seconds for the little animals to sing like canaries."
---If only regaining the trust and respect of the international community worked as quickly. Given this administration's enthusiasm for flexing its military might, I fear it won't be long before we find out what our arrogance has cost us in terms of international goodwill. What people in their right mind would want to help us now (militarily or otherwise)? The Bush administration has destroyed so much for so very little. Shame on the United States of America. Shame on us.
"What people in their right mind would want to help us now (militarily or otherwise)?"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! THAT'S a laugh!!
Mesodud,
When has ANYONE ever helped the U.S. in the past? We've never received a THING from anybody else, but oh no, WE give and give and give and give and give to the rest of the world. Medical supplies, technology, money, food, humanitarian aid, business models, debt forgiveness....the list goes on and on. The World has their hands out, simply because we're richer, smarter, faster, freer and stronger than they are - and they want it. They want what we've got, and they want it bad. And in our benevolence (some would say foolishness), we've been right there, aiding them along, giving what we have away, just because we're prosperous and they're not.
What people in their right mind would want to help us militarily or otherwise? Indeed, none, and why should they, when WE'RE providing THEM with everything?
Aniokly:From the tone of this and subsequent posts I have witnessed, of yours, I'd guess that you are attempting to butch up enough to pop out your set of round hairy ones. You are, frankly, fanciful and wishful and way too full of yourself. Do you think you impress anyone with your continual macho BS? Grow up and try to act like a lady.
PS waterboarding is torture and I hope you never get to experience it first hand, although, it might do YOU some good to gasp for air once in awhile. Pitiful, just pitiful. What a waste.
Aw. You don't agree with my posts? Now that hurts. Not. I don't post for your amuement, and I am afraid I am not the slightest bit interested in your opinions, anymore then you are interested in mine.
Aniokly:If this post was for my benefit, thanks. I was hopeful that I might guide you a little in the hopes that maybe next time, you might get asked to a prom. But to contradict you a bit, I am quite amused with your posts. So, where you come from, guys judge their women by the amount of hair on their chests? Or how far they can spit? Writing their names in the snow? Without a stencil.
Didn't lawyers "clear" enhanced interrogation techniques?
Was it Britney or Paris who drove with a suspended license because "her LAWYER" said it was O.K.? I guess I'l get a layer to tell me its ok to kill someone for being annoying, then use the excuse that no one said "do not kill that person". I wonder if that will clear me of any criminal charges. Or. Will it get me "The Chair" or as we called it during my childhood "Ol' Sparky". I think it would be choice number 2.
lemme get this straight. videos were destroyed of al-qaeda terrorists being tortured for information. al-qaeda. same guys who brought down the trade center and killed 1000's...
oh look a 3-stooges film on TV... moe, you crazy guy, and look there's curly...
ppiittuu:Where did you get the impression that Alqaeda had anything to do with the wtc attacks? You better stick to the 3 stooges. And then, how does this equate in any form to Iraq and torture tapes? You are very confused.
"Where did you get the impression that Alqaeda had anything to do with the wtc attacks?"
Well, for a start and just in case you missed it, Bin Laden claimed responsibility for them several years ago.
Perhaps you should pay attention to the news more.
BoBo:No, he did not. As a matter of fact, he emphatically denied any involvement. Perhaps you might be advised to recheck YOUR news, or change stations. The videos have all been frauds. Not 1 authenticated video, not 1. The FBI has stated that they refuse to accept them as any kind of evidence and will not issue warrants for OBL based on these fraudulent videos.
wow. that's all i can say. you've had 6 years to educate yourself re: the wtc attacks.
read the 9/11 commission report: "KSM knew that the successful staging of such an attack would require personnel, money, and logistical support that only an extensive and well-funded organization like al Qaeda could provide."
unless you are one of the we-blew-it-up-ourselves type...
ppiittuu:These are Iraqis. These are not alqaeda. There is no connection of alqaeda and 911. I think you have your terrorists confused. And no, we did not blow it up ourselves, because we aren't smart enough to get it done without leaving bread crumb trails all the way back to our doorsteps. And somehow, someway, a band of cave dwellers with walkie talkies and diapers for hats, had the personnel(arabis passports, expired), money, logistical support (like standing down NORAD) or (scheduling exercises exactly like those taking place at exactly the same time), an extensive and well funded organization (like the Moussad). You think all this was even remotely capable of this group of cave dwellers? It's plain you have no idea of who the real players are or how this was done. If you haven't figured it out by now, you never will. By choice or design, it doesn't matter. We have opposing views and reason. I guess OBL and Saddam were good buddies too, right?
read the story before you comment on it. amazing...
"Lawyers within the clandestine branch of the Central Intelligence Agency gave written approval in advance to the destruction in 2005 of hundreds of hours of videotapes documenting interrogations of two lieutenants from Al Qaeda..."
i'll probably kick myself for asking but here goes: who are the "real players?"
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If I didn't know better I would think the Republicans set the Democrats up. It is really simple to rile the Democrats. They never check the facts. They just grab a Republican leak, Jump up, and down like monkeys in a cage, then the truth come out, and they look more stupid then the last time the Republicans played a joke with them. They are always good for a laugh
The sad thing is that the bushie admin has used corrupt lawyers to provide "excuses" for crimes and corruption in an effort to protect itself from american justice. Just one more corruption of america by the bushies.
As I said here
http://donoevil.propeller.com/story/2007/12/11/...
As it becomes clearer that this was an internal CIA decision by career CIA employees, reliable Democrat allies, and not from the White House, this story, and the "outrage" that accompanies it, will fade.
In what way are the employees of CIA reliable Democrat allies? Spin, spin, spin.
Also, the outrage cannot and should not fade. This was evidence, and the gathering and preservation of evidence is one of the CIA's primary tasks.
Does the name Plame come to mind?
Either she was or was't a CIA operative.
Stop claiming she was (in order to support your ridiculous claims of institutional bias) in one breath, and then with the next that she wasn't (to cover Bush's backside).
Pick a story and stick to it.
That's odd. The outrage struck me as particularly bi-partisan. As it should be.
Not all Republicans (or Democrats) are evil.
Many of them simply want to do the right thing, but disagree on what that is.
StarLord:
Consider this comment as an attempt to push the "super Good" button.
Aniokly
You and the other far right neocons are hypocrites. After the way you went after Clinton, you hate it when something legitimate is found as opposed to a blow j-b. This administration and its henchmen HAS BROUGHT DOWN THIS NATION IN EVERY WAY AND YOU STILL DON'T GET IT. when will you wake up and get into the real world. Are you or the country better off now than you were before this present batch in the White House or his henchmen in Congress. If you say yes, there is no hope for you.
"Are you or the country better off now than you were before this present batch in the White House or his henchmen in Congress."
A resounding, unequivocable, most hearty YES.
YES, I am better off than I was eight years ago, YES, the country is safer than it was eight years ago, YES the economy is better than it was eight years ago, and YES, the unemployment rate is lower than it was eight years ago.
Anyone who has not prospered in the last 5 or 6 years is either lazy, an idiot, or some kind of a nut. Honestly, people, what is WRONG with you? You're given everything - a free market, freedom of speech, the most prosperous country in the history of the world, solid infrastructure, a stable economy, a stock market that breaks new records every month, a low unemployment rate, and the security to go about your business free of terrorist acts or civil unrest of any kind, and you STILL gripe and complain that you're not well off?
Maybe the problem is YOU.
You are deluded. The only fool here is you. I guess to a Con, better off is a seven year recession. Energy prices that are through the roof. Prices of food have almost doubled in the last year. All the jobs are heading to India. The housing market is a mess. This country is in the toilet. Not too sure what kind of drugs you've done, but they've definitely fried your brain. Looks like you're taking right after Bush. Not living in the real world whatsoever. You should be banned for putting up such a unintelligent, ignorant post.
sorry ani but I'll go with John McCain on this one. he says waterboarding should be outlawed since it gets iffy info at best.
McCain also says that when we use techniques like waterboarding, we lose the moral high ground.
and when we lose the moral high ground, we lose what makes us great, and the terrorists have won.
Told you so. All of you. Phony Scandal.
Apparently, many of the staunchest Bush defenders out here are having a hard time understanding the issues.
1) The White House did not give clear direction about whether to destroy the tapes. From the article:
"The former intelligence official acknowledged that there had been nearly two years of debate among government agencies about what to do with the tapes, and that lawyers within the White House and the Justice Department had in 2003 advised against a plan to destroy them. But the official said that C.I.A. officials had continued to press the White House for a firm decision, and that the C.I.A. was never given a direct order not to destroy the tapes.
" 'They never told us, "Hell, no," ' he said. 'If somebody had said, "You cannot destroy them," we would not have destroyed them.' "
So either the CIA went against White House wishes, or the White House failed to adequately oversee the CIA. Either way, someone's not doing his job.
(continued)
2) It appears those wanting to destroy the tapes were satisifed with any lawyer's decision, and didn't try to get any kind of "official" clearance. Again, FTA:
"In describing the decision to destroy the tapes, current and former officials said John A. Rizzo, the agency's top lawyer at the time, was not asked for final approval before the tapes were destroyed, although Mr. Rizzo had been involved in discussions for two years about the tapes.
"It is unclear what weight an opinion from a lawyer within the clandestine service would have if it were not formally approved by Mr. Rizzo. But the former official said Mr. Rodriguez and others in the clandestine branch believed the legal judgment gave them the blessing to destroy the tapes.
"The former official said the leaders of the clandestine service believed they 'didn't need to ask Rizzo's permission.' "
Is that the way you want government employees to operate?